My blog about talking about the world as it is. No mincing of words.
Setting the record straight
Published on February 27, 2005 By Mmrnmhrm In The Media
French intellectuals like to sniff that Americans have no culture and no history. They're right partially on the latter's account, most Americans have no sense of history and it's a good thing for the French that they don't.

The French play the "We've always been friends with the Americans" on the naive American public who seem to actually believe it. A few Americans may vaguely have heard of Lafayette, the famous French soldier who came to the US to fight for American freedom. What they don't know is that he did this in violation of a specific order from the crown not to do so.

During the American revolution, the wilily Benjamin Franklin managed to convince the French monarch that helping the colonists would be a good way to tweak the British. The French were no friends of the US though, they helped but only because it was in their best interest - they wanted to weaken Britain, the "hyperpuissance" of the day.

During the peace treaty negotiations, the French were secretly trying to push Britain into having the western most territory of the US stop before the Appalachian mountains. Luckily, the US negotiators caught wind of this and negotiated with Britain directly. Of course, during the war itself, after a series of setbacks, the French pushed the Continental congress to negotiate for peace early with some parts being independent and the rest part of Britain still (if that had happened, much of the south and New York would be separate countries today). That isn't to say the French weren't helpful, but they weren't particularly helpful. They were doing what was in their best interest throughout it all.

Not long after that war, the French began stirring up trouble for the US culminating in the infamous XYZ affair where the French demanded bribes to even speak to US diplomats. The first actual significant naval clashes of the US Navy were against French ships. Things continued down hill to the point that the War of 1812 was nearly a war against France (the senate voted that down 18 to 14 -- but it was a close thing).

The Louisiana Purchase was no gift. Napoleon had planned to fortify New Orleans. But after a disaster in the Caribbean where his invasion force caught Yellow Fever, he had to give up his New World ambitions and needed cash. The US happily obliged.
The French continued to be a pain throughout the 19th century with the culmination of the US Civil War where France wanted to recognize the south's independence early on as a means to thwart the growing strength of the US and enable them to move forward on re-colonizing the new world (which they did briefly by overthrowing the government of Mexico and installing their own "emperor" -- incidentally, the French military, despite having huge advantages in numbers, lost several battles against the Mexican "army" -- foreshadowing future French military performance).

During the Civil War, the French got so bad that they were supplying money, arms, and ships to the south including allowing southern ships to refit and upgrade in French ports. The only reason the French didn't officially recognize the south is that they wanted Great Britain to do so as well as to avoid any isolation in the event the South lost. The British were not quite as keen on the South because of the issue of slavery and a general cautiousness.

The French went through a few more governments during this time. After the French got their rears handed to them by the Prussians in 1871, the French became more pliant -- for awhile.

In World War I, the French were about to lose again and in fact a massive mutiny was only put down thanks to Marshall Petain's reassurance that the Americans were coming and the war would be over soon. The Americans did come and their added weight along with Wilson's 14 points convinced the Germans to sue for peace. But unlike the relatively benign treatment the French received at German hands in 1871, the French insisted on a crushing peace settlement including requiring Germany to assume responsibility for the entire war ("war guilt"). While one might argue that the Prussians pushed pretty hard in their peace settlement in 1871, it's worth bearing in mind that the Prussians actually won that war and had essentially conquered France. France, by contrast, wasn't occupying any of Germany at this point and was only a "victor" in that they were a passenger of the British/US victory train. France's insistence on humiliating Germany helped seal the fate for another war.

In World War II, were not allies of the US until 1944. From 1941 to 1943, technically the French were neutral at best, Nazi puppets/collaborators at worst. When the US invaded French North Africa, they were met with stiff resistance from teh Vichy forces in many cases. Some of the first American ground combat deaths were at the hands of the French. In Metropolitan France, the general population was not particularly unhappy with the Vichy regime. A 1942 election between DeGaulle and Petain (leader of Vichy France) would almost certainly have put Petain on top.

After Britain and the US rescued France..again the French immediately became pains in the asses again to US and British commanders to the point where Eisenhower had to threaten to cut off French supplies if they didn't quit going off on their own.
After the war, the new menace was the Soviet Union. In response, NATO was formed. And the French did little to help with that -- at one point dropping out of NATO completely.

In the 80s, France refused to let the US use its air space to retaliate against a terrorist attack ordered by Libya. In fact, the only time French air space has been used by the US on combat missions has been to liberate France -- which ironically the recognized government of France complained about US/British violation of their airspace then too so technically, there is some consistency.

In 1991, the French, technically was part of the coalition. But even there, they refused to do very much and were generally a pain in the butt -- to the point that Bush Jr. probably was not too keen on having French "support" again such as in Afghanistan or Iraq II.

This is just a highlight reel of US/French "Relations". It's a lot easier to find obnoxious, hostile, and occasionally acts of war commited by France against the United States than to find acts of significant friendship (the Statue of Liberty being one of the few things but even that had an ulterior motive).

I don't think France is an enemy of the United States as some neo-cons do. But it has never really been much of a friend to the US. Today, the French really have nothing left. Their subsidized farmers, their poorly made manufactured equipment, and their subsidized competition of US aircraft makers along with their petty meddling in foreign policy that is designed for short term French gain (why should the French care if their actions ultimately lead to Europe's endangerment? They know the Americans will come running to protect them).

The French are many things. Friends of the United States? Not so much.

Comments (Page 4)
5 PagesFirst 2 3 4 5 
on Mar 11, 2005
USing your reasoning, the United States is no friend of any country. We joined World War I after it started to impact us, we joined World War II after it impacted us, we invaded Cuba to gain strength for the monroe doctrine (same for all other south american countries). We were not friends to the japanese, we threw them in detainment camps, we were no friends of the Filipinos, we took over their country ... or sorry we "purchased" it. No country acts with out benefit on their own behalf, countries do not have "friends". And the French have given us a gift before... and its in New York now. What did we ever give the french?
on Mar 11, 2005
What did we ever give the french?


Their freedom. Twice.
Nice as the statue is, I prefer freedom.
on Mar 11, 2005
I'm sorry, remind me where we gave them their freedom?
on Mar 11, 2005
Toughlove wrote:

The French play the "We've always been friends with the Americans" on the naive American public who seem to actually believe it. A few Americans may vaguely have heard of Lafayette, the famous French soldier who came to the US to fight for American freedom. What they don't know is that he did this in violation of a specific order from the crown not to do so.

During the American revolution, the wilily Benjamin Franklin managed to convince the French monarch that helping the colonists would be a good way to tweak the British. The French were no friends of the US though, they helped but only because it was in their best interest - they wanted to weaken Britain, the "hyperpuissance" of the day.


Typical unsubstantiated right-wing misnformation. Per the LIbrary of Congress (Link):

France had been secretly aiding the American Colonies since 1775, because France was angry at Britain over the loss of Colonial territory in the French and Indian War...

France aided the colonists by providing military armaments and loans. France's support deepened after the Americans beat the British in the October 1777 Battle of Saratoga, proving themselves committed to independence and worthy of a formal alliance. King Louis XVI approved financial assistance to the American colonists only four days after Franklin and his comrades requested it. During the Revolution, France sent an estimated 12,000 soldiers and 32,000 sailors to the American war effort, the most famous of whom was the Marquis of Lafayette.

On February 6, 1778, Benjamin Franklin was in France signing the Treaty of Amity and Commerce and the Treaty of Alliance. The Treaty of Amity and Commerce recognized the U.S. as an independent nation and promoted trade between France and America. The second agreement, the Treaty of Alliance, made the fledgling United States and France allies against Great Britain in the Revolutionary War. The French decided to back the U.S. in its military efforts until the U.S. had full independence from Great Britain. After that, the treaty required France and the U.S. to work together on any peace agreement.


That's just debunking the first bit of your mindless rant.

Face it: At America's birth, France was the midwife.
on Mar 12, 2005
I'm sorry, remind me where we gave them their freedom?


Try WW2.
on Mar 13, 2005
Try WW2.


First, we were bound by a treaty to protect France against Germany (a treaty signed after WWI). Second of all, we were dragged into WWII by Japan (we fought for our own interest).
on Mar 13, 2005
What did liberating France have to do with Japan? And secondly, the allies could have done anything with France after the war. It was a colloaborating during the war. That it turned it over to DeGualle was giving them their freedom.
on Mar 13, 2005
Granted, my knowledge of WWI isn't as great as it is of WW2, but I'm actually unaware of any treaty we signed assist France against Germany, signed after WWI, when Germany was considered by all concerned to be down and out for the count. Therefore, I question why the victors would have felt the need for such a treaty. I'd like to hear more.
on Mar 14, 2005
Granted, my knowledge of WWI isn't as great as it is of WW2, but I'm actually unaware of any treaty we signed assist France against Germany, signed after WWI, when Germany was considered by all concerned to be down and out for the count. Therefore, I question why the victors would have felt the need for such a treaty. I'd like to hear more.


We needed to apease the french to get them to agree to the treaty signed after the war, and they wanted to take control of some land, I can't quite remember what now, but some land that previously belonged to the Central Powers, and the United States (Wilson) refused to allow that, so to appease the french he signed a treaty with them (and the british did as well) stating we would help them in the event of a german invasion (the French were still afraid of the Germans, afterall they almost took over the country).
on Mar 14, 2005
The Anglo-American Treaty of Guarantee didn't pass the U.S. Senate, and as such, was not binding.
on Mar 14, 2005

The Anglo-American Treaty of Guarantee didn't pass the U.S. Senate, and as such, was not binding.


So basically what your saying is that the US signed no binding treaties with the french after WW1?
on Mar 14, 2005
Try WW2.


First, we were bound by a treaty to protect France against Germany (a treaty signed after WWI). Second of all, we were dragged into WWII by Japan (we fought for our own interest).


Wrong answer!


How did World War One change the way America looked at the world?

Many Americans saw US involvement in WWI as a waste of time. From the very beginning it was not particularly popular. When the war ended many Americans saw a Europe that had changed little. Men had died, sacrifices made...and for what. America had walked into the ring of international diplomacy and affairs and received a bloody nose for our efforts. The result was a disillusionment with world affairs. The result of this disillusionment was a fundamental shift in American policy from internationalism to relative isolationism.

Everywhere one found a strong impulse to return to old isolationist ways. Wilson's inspiring leadership had keyed the American people to a spirit of self sacrifice that had even resulted in the prohibition of alcoholic beverages. But this was all changing. Victory had brought an emotional letdown - "the slump of idealism." It had also brought a profound disillusionment with the imperialistic and bickering Allies. The war to make the world safe for democracy [also known as the war to end all wars] had not made the world safe for democracy, nor had it ended wars. Some twenty conflicts of varying dimensions were being waged in various parts of the world. About all that America had seemingly derived (gotten) from the war was debt, inflation, prohibition, influenza, and ingratitude from Allies whom she had strained herself to help - while of course, helping to defeat a common enemy.

I. The U.S. Turns Away From The World

A. What were Wilson's arguments in favor of ratification of the Treaty of Versailles?

1. The future of world peace is at stake.

2. The League of Nations is the future of solving world problems.

3. Failure to be involved places us and the world in danger. The US must have a place at the table to take a leadership role.

B. What were the arguments given against ratification and in favor of isolation?

1. League of nations would create new contacts.

2. Contacts breed involvement.

3. Involvement meant war.

4. League of Nations might be able to control US military personnel

C. What happened?

1. The Treaty as you can imagine received enormous opposition. Henry Cabot Lodge and Alfred Beveridge strongly denounced the treaty, especially Article Ten which called upon the US to support League actions. Wilson campaigned vigorously and gave 37 speeches in 29 cities in a span of only three weeks. He declared that US soldiers should not have died in vain. After a dramatic speech in Colorado Wilson collapsed. His health had been poor for sic months and the strain of the trip was too much. He was rushed back to Washington and a few days later had a massive stroke. For the next year and a half he was incapable of running the government but was protected by his wife and closest advisors.

1. In March 1920 the US Senate finally killed the treaty. The United States did not ratify the Treaty of Versailles and we did not join the League of Nations. Wilson considered this a great failure and it plagued him until his death.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Disgust was deepening. Hundreds of thousands of American boys were returning from Europe, irritated by cheating French shopkeepers, and most favorably impressed by the blonde German girls. American's everywhere were saying that Europe could jolly well "stew in its own juice." In the face of such wide spread disillusionment Wilson would have troubles in arousing people again.


-Thomas A. Bailey, Historian
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Woodrow Wilson defending the Treaty of Versailles

I want to remind you how the permanency of peace is at the heart of this treaty. This is not merely a treaty of peace with Germany... it is nothing less than world settlement, and at the center of that stands the covenant for the future we call the Covenant of the League of Nations. Without it the treaty can not be worked and without it it is a mere temporary arrangement with Germany. The covenant of the League of Nations is the instrumentality (means) for the maintenance of peace.



If the treaty is not ratified by the Senate, the war will have been fought in vain, and the world will be thrown into chaos. I promised our soldiers, when I asked them to take up arms, that it was a war to end wars...

-Pres. Woodrow Wilson



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Opposition

The question before us is whether the League that has been drafted by the Commission of the Peace Conference and laid before us is will it secure the peace of the world as it stands, and whether it is just and fair to the United States of America. That is the question and I want to bring it to the test.

Wars between nations come form contacts. A nation with which we have no contact is a nation with which we should never fight... In this scheme for a League now before us we create a number of new contact, a number of new relations, which we have not undertaken before to create.

-Senator Henry Cabot Lodge, Massachusetts



We are told that this treaty means peace. Even so, I would not pay the price. Would you purchase peace at the cost of you independence?

-Senator William E. Borah, Idaho



The League of Nations is the work "amiable old male grannies who, over their afternoon tea, are planning to denationalize America and denationalize the nations manhood."

-Senator Albert Beveridge, Indiana


Link So in essence we handed the french their freedom after WW2.
on Apr 05, 2005
My god what an horrible piece of junk !

What a mess about caricatural details !!! where did you get that french are dirty ? geez ! Come there are pigs all over the earth !
you can easily find dirty people wherever you live !

considering the iraqi war 2, chirac has opted for an intelligent issue, as the islamic problem has NO FACE, you can try to kill them and kill them again, one die ? ok, they put a new islamist as new leader !

The thing i hate the most from -Dubya- 'puke' is that he has perverted the sens of the word LIBERTY ! LIBERTY can be used in so many ways that it can mean ALL you want it to say. You can oblige people with a 12 century minded to to top the occidental mind....there is a real fracture here between us and them !

US and France doesn't agree about this conflict because the US idea is to brought "Liberty" by force if necessary, and with an idea of "It will be them or us ! It's a religion war", according to some chatting i had with american, australians and anglo-saxons friends. The french position intends to say that it's better to use the diplomatic way, without pushing it further.

The danger would that if US doesn't reach their goal by bringing the so-called liberty in Iraq, what would happened ?

And last but not the least, American people are formerly composed of English, Irish, French, Danish, norvegian populations !!

We, europeans are YOUR ROOTS !!! Never forget this !


And at last , i love communicating with people from around the world whom speak english/american and most of all

Whatever president you want but no way BUSH !!!! He spreads shit everywhere he goes !!







on Apr 05, 2005
As for Europeans being my roots, I thank my Spanish Ancestor Cristobal Colon (alias Christopher Columbus) for coming over, discovering, having children who had children with the native Puerto Ricans (alias Arrowaks) who had children, etc. who had my grandparents who begat my Mom who begat me.
Plus there is also the Nieves bloodline that is traceable if somebody took the time to trace it.

Sidenote: Columbus is a Catalonian from around Barcelona; they (history channel or discovery channel with relevant experts) have discovered this through his writing and the fact that in Barcelona lived the Colon Banking Family, rich nobles. They found out that the reason he kept his identity a secret because he had fought the King 10 years earlier in a Naval war between the Spanish and the Italians. Plus if Columbus was Italian he would have written a single letter in Italian, which a forensics person could look at and say this guy was Italian. Instead his handwriting was comparable to a Catalonian Noble, go figure! Besides, when did poor guys marry rich noble women in the 1400s...
NEVER.

On my father's side it is not as clear-cut:
Stebbing come from the Alsace-Lorraine region so they could be French, German or more likely both.
Dilworth come from Stuarts/Stewarts (Scottish Ones) but exactly which Stuarts we are not sure. As in if it is the common line or noble line. Hard for my Grandfather to trace since the person who knew died 22 years ago, my Great Grandfather (Grandmother's side).
Also, we have Wheelers mixed in and are traceable back to 'Fighting Joe' Wheeler? (Confed General who had horses shot out from under him on every occasion who was in a battle with a horse). Though we also have people on the Union side as well in roles as enlisted and officer but sometimes you can only trace names not jobs or biographies.

Plus for every single French person who looks at me funny or with contempt.

Napoleon was Corsican, get over it, it is a fact of life. Napoleon pissed off Ludwig (my favorite composer) by becoming a despot. Ludwig's 3rd Symphony was originally dedicated to Napoleon but Napoleon started invading and Ludwig lost his love for the man.

I don't hate you or your culture, never did, never will because I don't hate other cultures or people, no point in doing so because it is improper and rude going against the image set forth by a great fellow Oklahoman, Will Rogers.

I just loathe the actions of the French Government when it tries to undermine US policy in a less than constructive way.

- Grim Xogers

Don't know who Will Rogers is, than you better read you History on the great man who's one-eyed pilot friend by the way also invented the G-Suit for Airplanes. Will Rogers was a great orator and man who had never met a man or woman he did not like. Most likely, Will Rogers will be on the back of the Oklahoma coin probably along with a symbol representing the 5 civilized tribes and the other American Indian nations such as the Apache, Comanche, Kiowa, etc.
on Apr 06, 2005
Well about Napoleon, again a mistake, CORSICA is a french department and have always been !!!!

So napoleon was a FRENCH guy ! I can't believe to see such things, some people out there have real problem with history and geography as it appears.....

It's like if i say that clinton ex arkansas governor was not american and only arkansas guy.... you then just reply to me he is american which is absolutely the truth, no ?
5 PagesFirst 2 3 4 5