My blog about talking about the world as it is. No mincing of words.
Setting the record straight
Published on February 27, 2005 By Mmrnmhrm In The Media
French intellectuals like to sniff that Americans have no culture and no history. They're right partially on the latter's account, most Americans have no sense of history and it's a good thing for the French that they don't.

The French play the "We've always been friends with the Americans" on the naive American public who seem to actually believe it. A few Americans may vaguely have heard of Lafayette, the famous French soldier who came to the US to fight for American freedom. What they don't know is that he did this in violation of a specific order from the crown not to do so.

During the American revolution, the wilily Benjamin Franklin managed to convince the French monarch that helping the colonists would be a good way to tweak the British. The French were no friends of the US though, they helped but only because it was in their best interest - they wanted to weaken Britain, the "hyperpuissance" of the day.

During the peace treaty negotiations, the French were secretly trying to push Britain into having the western most territory of the US stop before the Appalachian mountains. Luckily, the US negotiators caught wind of this and negotiated with Britain directly. Of course, during the war itself, after a series of setbacks, the French pushed the Continental congress to negotiate for peace early with some parts being independent and the rest part of Britain still (if that had happened, much of the south and New York would be separate countries today). That isn't to say the French weren't helpful, but they weren't particularly helpful. They were doing what was in their best interest throughout it all.

Not long after that war, the French began stirring up trouble for the US culminating in the infamous XYZ affair where the French demanded bribes to even speak to US diplomats. The first actual significant naval clashes of the US Navy were against French ships. Things continued down hill to the point that the War of 1812 was nearly a war against France (the senate voted that down 18 to 14 -- but it was a close thing).

The Louisiana Purchase was no gift. Napoleon had planned to fortify New Orleans. But after a disaster in the Caribbean where his invasion force caught Yellow Fever, he had to give up his New World ambitions and needed cash. The US happily obliged.
The French continued to be a pain throughout the 19th century with the culmination of the US Civil War where France wanted to recognize the south's independence early on as a means to thwart the growing strength of the US and enable them to move forward on re-colonizing the new world (which they did briefly by overthrowing the government of Mexico and installing their own "emperor" -- incidentally, the French military, despite having huge advantages in numbers, lost several battles against the Mexican "army" -- foreshadowing future French military performance).

During the Civil War, the French got so bad that they were supplying money, arms, and ships to the south including allowing southern ships to refit and upgrade in French ports. The only reason the French didn't officially recognize the south is that they wanted Great Britain to do so as well as to avoid any isolation in the event the South lost. The British were not quite as keen on the South because of the issue of slavery and a general cautiousness.

The French went through a few more governments during this time. After the French got their rears handed to them by the Prussians in 1871, the French became more pliant -- for awhile.

In World War I, the French were about to lose again and in fact a massive mutiny was only put down thanks to Marshall Petain's reassurance that the Americans were coming and the war would be over soon. The Americans did come and their added weight along with Wilson's 14 points convinced the Germans to sue for peace. But unlike the relatively benign treatment the French received at German hands in 1871, the French insisted on a crushing peace settlement including requiring Germany to assume responsibility for the entire war ("war guilt"). While one might argue that the Prussians pushed pretty hard in their peace settlement in 1871, it's worth bearing in mind that the Prussians actually won that war and had essentially conquered France. France, by contrast, wasn't occupying any of Germany at this point and was only a "victor" in that they were a passenger of the British/US victory train. France's insistence on humiliating Germany helped seal the fate for another war.

In World War II, were not allies of the US until 1944. From 1941 to 1943, technically the French were neutral at best, Nazi puppets/collaborators at worst. When the US invaded French North Africa, they were met with stiff resistance from teh Vichy forces in many cases. Some of the first American ground combat deaths were at the hands of the French. In Metropolitan France, the general population was not particularly unhappy with the Vichy regime. A 1942 election between DeGaulle and Petain (leader of Vichy France) would almost certainly have put Petain on top.

After Britain and the US rescued France..again the French immediately became pains in the asses again to US and British commanders to the point where Eisenhower had to threaten to cut off French supplies if they didn't quit going off on their own.
After the war, the new menace was the Soviet Union. In response, NATO was formed. And the French did little to help with that -- at one point dropping out of NATO completely.

In the 80s, France refused to let the US use its air space to retaliate against a terrorist attack ordered by Libya. In fact, the only time French air space has been used by the US on combat missions has been to liberate France -- which ironically the recognized government of France complained about US/British violation of their airspace then too so technically, there is some consistency.

In 1991, the French, technically was part of the coalition. But even there, they refused to do very much and were generally a pain in the butt -- to the point that Bush Jr. probably was not too keen on having French "support" again such as in Afghanistan or Iraq II.

This is just a highlight reel of US/French "Relations". It's a lot easier to find obnoxious, hostile, and occasionally acts of war commited by France against the United States than to find acts of significant friendship (the Statue of Liberty being one of the few things but even that had an ulterior motive).

I don't think France is an enemy of the United States as some neo-cons do. But it has never really been much of a friend to the US. Today, the French really have nothing left. Their subsidized farmers, their poorly made manufactured equipment, and their subsidized competition of US aircraft makers along with their petty meddling in foreign policy that is designed for short term French gain (why should the French care if their actions ultimately lead to Europe's endangerment? They know the Americans will come running to protect them).

The French are many things. Friends of the United States? Not so much.

Comments (Page 2)
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on Feb 28, 2005
Hey, don't forget about that little French-Indian tiff before the revolution.......and by the way, the french do love some Americans.....Jerry Lewis and John Kerry both come to mind.............
on Feb 28, 2005
As that great statesman once said, "nations don't have friends; they have shared interests". Why should any American care if the French don't like them? To be honest I find it surprising that it's considered so offensive that they don't. The US has never really gone out of its way to help France (in both world wars America was more an ally of Britain than France; France was simply the unwilling and incompetent battleground), and France has never really gone out of its way to help the US. So to assume that there should be some common ground, a shared love for each other because of something that's as yet undefined seems kind of stupid.

The Columbians don't like the US. The South Africans don't like the US. Noone seems to care about that though. Why is France so special? Is it because they're white like you are? Is it because you named your style of hot chips after them? Is it because of the giant statue they gave you? It bewilders me why their opinion is considered so important that they must be slandered/supported every few weeks.
on Mar 01, 2005
The Columbians don't like the US.
--Cacto

The Colombians are drug dealers. South Africa, I know little about them except that we buy their diamonds.
Personally, I think that with France it's a loyalty issue; we feel a certain sense of betrayal that they try to resist or undermine seemingly anything we do, even if it might be in their best interests in the long run.
Many of us (me, for one) may feel that they owe us, perhaps...I hate to reiterate, but there are many, many American-born corpses lying beneath Flander's Field and in the ground above the beaches at Normandy. We won and returned to them what they were either too incompetant or unwilling (or both) to win back for themselves.
We deserve more than political resistance and arrogant dismissal of our society and culture for that.
on Mar 01, 2005
As in acting in its own self-interest, Rightwinger. They'll defend France for doing this but scream NO MORE BLOOD FOR OIL about the US...it's so hypocritical.


I see. Helix...sorry..I think I misunderstood you.
on Mar 01, 2005
The French still regard Napoleon as a hero. I suppose its OK to be a despot as long as you're a french one. The French have always been adversarial to the US, Lafayette not withstanding. In fact, the French government ordered him not to go, but he went anyway, with doesn't prevent them from puling that card out whenever it suits there purpose.
on Mar 01, 2005
Napoleon was not French, he was Corsican...though when you think about it France has never had a strong leader who was French and unless you count Joan of Arc but the French betrayed her and watched her burn. Ah well, so much for French loyalty to even their fellow Frenchman (woman in this case).

I think France is a particular focus here because:
a) title of the article and topic of the post
people defend France as an ally when clearly our history should tell us otherwise
c) they whine the loudest, hands down, second would be Germany but there is a huge gap between first and second.
d) wish to rearm (personally) Mainland China ending the weapons embargo emplaced on Mainland China after the incident in a square
e) unlike South Africa or Colombia, France is a big trading partner plus a world power. After all one does not even bat an eye at the very mention of a Colombian or South African Military attacking people.
f) Colombia may dislike the U.S. but loads of Colombians come to the U.S. after all I have met a few just recently in my small town who immigrated from Colombia under less than legal circumstances, might because the country is riddled with Drug lords who can buy the Military who can control the country...or not.
g) South Africa has enough internal problems that they don't really lose any sleep worrying about us, but yet have supplied (off the top of my head) two lovely actoresses, Charlize Theron and Musetta Vander (Musetta is known to B movie people, a lovely brunette who did not receive the large break as Charlize but has made the most of her career anyways).
h) Would you like to know more?

- Grim X
on Mar 01, 2005

I like the way you added the Mexico battles.  Many people think that Cinco de Mayo is Mexican Independance day, but in reality it is just a celebration (mostly in the US) of when a small band of Mexicans defeated a vastly superior french force.

Seems France has a good record in losing!

on Mar 01, 2005
Seems France has a good record in losing!


Which is undoubtedly one reason why they got their rep for being so sneaky and underhanded; they can't manage on the battlefield, so they fight their battles in other ways. They haven't won a significant battle since Napoleon....and as someone pointed out, he wasn't even French!
on Mar 03, 2005
Hi all !

Always a delight to read this kinf of writing...

Funny that as a child during the 80s I've always seen american as friends and the ones who helped liberate us... Funny that after the 9/11, the main french newspaper was titling on first page "we are all americans" and everybody felt this way... Funny that some american understand "allies" as "vassals" and wont accept any contradiction. Funny that few are ashamed that the most powerfull person in the world, leading the so called "biggest democraty" needs to present false indications and proofs to lead his own people to take them to war. And half of the nation stands behind in patriotic transe.

Don't get me wrong, as they are people in US to stand up against the actual nonsens, they are others in Europe to look with criticism the current & past behavior of our countries. I don't think selling weapons to china is a good idea either...

Poor america, I hope you wake up before it's too late...

Never has the word freedom been so misued and meaningless. I'm even ashamed to use it..


PS:
"Their subsidized farmers, their poorly made manufactured equipment, and their subsidized competition of US aircraft makers along with their petty meddling in foreign policy"

Have you ever been to France ? You'll see it's pretty nice even if a bit strange : we have our own culture and language ! you won't believe it ! Some of us even refuse to simply switch to english as their only language ! and you know what ? it's the same in all european countries... incredible.

A good example of friendship.

Do you know that it's because of the US that France started the "Ariane" space launcher program ? The story is quite funny, Germany and France in the 70's created the most advanced telecommunication satellite of the time, USA was really supportive and said it would launch it and that the developpement of a European launcher was meaningless and a waste of time & money... When ready, the only "problem" in the USA launch contract was that France and Germany were not allowed to use the satellite for commercial purpose So started the ariane development...

Now we've been told that Galileo, the european Global positioning system is a waste of time and money because amercian GPS system is available and free... Thanks ! maybe we'll do it anyway...
on Mar 03, 2005

Have you ever been to France ?

I am French as the day is long.  My Great Grandparents came over to America.  Until my Generation, everyone grew up speaking French and English (I learned French, but it was not used in the house).

I have been to France.  It is dirty, and the people are rude crude and uncalled for. The France you describe is not available to Americans.  If the French find out you are American (I assumed it was all foreigners, but in that I could be mistaken), you are spat on and treated with the utmost contempt.

Dont Lecture to me.  Try visiting your own country as a visitor and not a native.  You will see what I mean.

BTW:  I lived in Europe, so it was not like a 2 week vacation.  I visited France many times in that 2 years.

on Mar 03, 2005
Funny that few are ashamed that the most powerfull person in the world, leading the so called "biggest democraty" needs to present false indications and proofs to lead his own people to take them to war. And half of the nation stands behind in patriotic transe.


What's ALSO funny is the FACT that every intelligence agency in the world *including* "France" said the same damn thing.


In contrast, according to Blix, President Chirac had a healthy scepticism about intelligence. Although the French intelligence services were convinced WMD remained in Iraq, Chirac recognised that the intelligence services "sometimes intoxicate each other". His thinking "seemed to be dominated by the conviction that Iraq did not pose a threat that justified armed intervention".
on Mar 03, 2005
jcg,

"The French still regard Napoleon as a hero. I suppose its OK to be a despot as long as you're a french one."

Bonepart was one of the finest generals the world has ever known,
his campaigns and battle plans are still required reading in millitary academies around the globe.
His "Grand Armee" came within a hair's breadth of conquering all of Europe.
I think that would qualify him to be a hero in anyones books....

Serial.
on Mar 03, 2005

Bonepart was one of the finest generals the world has ever known,
his campaigns and battle plans are still required reading in millitary academies around the globe.
His "Grand Armee" came within a hair's breadth of conquering all of Europe.
I think that would qualify him to be a hero in anyones books....

Very true. And as another already pointed out, he was Corsican, not French.

 

on Mar 03, 2005

Funny that after the 9/11, the main french newspaper was titling on first page "we are all americans" and everybody felt this way...

Le Monde, who wrote "We are all Americans" was not a supportive article of the US.  I suspect you didn't actually read the article. What the actual article meant was that we are all vulnerable to terrorist attacks. It was not an article of unity.  Moreover, Le Monde (same author) clarified that the US basically had it coming and our acts before and after made the world more dangerous.

on Mar 03, 2005

Bonepart was one of the finest generals the world has ever known,
his campaigns and battle plans are still required reading in millitary academies around the globe.
His "Grand Armee" came within a hair's breadth of conquering all of Europe.
I think that would qualify him to be a hero in anyones books....

But that argument, Hitler was a "hero".  Conquering and massacreing people does not make someone a hero.  Napoleon, in case you've forgotten, was a violent, brutal dictator who routinely executed political opponents, wiped out thousands of people. It is said that the Napoleaonic wars wiped out nearly a million people.  And that was in the days before full mobilization.

And for what? What great thing was he fighting for? Fraternity? Equality? No. Personal agrandizement.  Glory.

If you want to learn about a hero, I would suggest reading up on George Washington. A man who could have been king (or "emperor") but instead chose to be an elected official who worked hard, once in office, to keep the US out of war with UK or France and voluntarily stepped down after two terms of office. That is a hero.

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